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Reisender

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Posted: 01/16/23 12:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

Reisender wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Does anyone know the wattage on the battery heaters used in EV's?


It depends on the car Don. But generally speaking EV’s do it different than ICE cars. Unlike an Ice car that uses an electric element to heat metal, most EV’s use the power from the battery to heat itself, or in many cases the coolant which is circulated. But that only happens down till about 20 percent battery and then that gets turned off so the battery isn’t depleted. It also doesn’t heat it unless the owner decides to either pre-condition the battery in preparation for charging or if the owner wants to warn the interiour and defrost the windows. Even if the car is plugged in the power will still come from the battery, but the battery will be charging because it’s plugged in. The power for everything always comes from the battery. The only thing that changes when it is plugged in is the battery is charging.

So in answer to your question, you can use anything from 8 amps at 120 volts to 48 amps at 240 volts. But the battery won’t be heated unless the user or the software decides it needs it. Below minus 30 the algorhythm changes a bit from what I understand. But only if it’s plugged in. The coldest we have used ours over the years is about minus 30 so I can’t speak to colder than that. We don’t plug ours in if it’s out in those temps as the cord gets to stiff to put away. The car doesn’t care either way. It takes an extra 5 minutes to warm up and defrost the windows at that temp.

We have a garage but unfortunately it is often occupied for projects so it is not always available.

Hope that helps.


I should have been clearer

I wanted to know if the battery was kept warm while plugged in at temperatures down to -37 c (-34 f)--and if so, how much power does it use to do so.

I'd have access to level 1 charging.

I seem to remember that the Leaf does use energy from the battery bank to keep the bank warm. But really not sure at all


Yah I get what you are asking now. Bottom line is a normal 120 volt 15 amp receptacle is fine for that. We did all our charging like that for a couple years. But even a 240 volt 12 amp connection is much better. We since added that and it’s a much better charging solution in cold weather. Hope that helps.

Groover

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Posted: 01/16/23 02:16pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

Too many things do not make any sense.
At a time when we are all being pushed into EVs, and electricity supply is constrained.... We have companies with warehouses full of computers running 24/7 To "mine" fake money. The electricity wasted doing this could have far better and more productive uses.. Then this fake money is sold to a greater fool for real money in the hopes that an even greater fool will come along and pay even more for it. So long as we as a society fall into this madness, I do not see how we can possibly affect the climate in a positive way.

I have a long list of things that do not make any sense, but this is enough for now


You are right about the madness. As a Tesla owner I believe that electric cars have a definite place on our roads and that that place will expand as everything related to electric cars improves. My concern is that most of the people pushing electric cars don't seem to have a clue on where to get the electricity. Sure, solar and wind will help but I don't believe that it is going to get us more than about half way there.

As an engineer the obvious answer to me is that we need more nuclear power at a more affordable price. In the near term that is probably small modular reactors of the sort that Bill Gates has been promoting. With enough carbon free electric power we might even be able to start pulling CO2 back out of the air or make synthetic fuels with carbon pulled from the air. The response that I generally get from environmentalists is that nuclear power is too dangerous. And yet the can't show any damage done by nuclear power that is nearly as catastrophic or impending as much as the damage that they predict from too much CO2 in the air. There is an old saying about not getting the carriage in front of the horse but as far as I can tell most environmentalists don't even know why the horse is needed.

Basically, many of the environmentalists are just as much or more in denial than most of the climate change deniers. If the "environmentalists" had not been in such determined opposition to nuclear power in the last 40 or 50 years we would have had a lot less fossil fuel consumption and the environment would be in a lot better shape than it currently is.

* This post was edited 01/16/23 02:38pm by Groover *

Grit dog

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Posted: 01/16/23 04:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

To continue the off topic discussion…

To pianotuna’s point, his demographic (I’ll presume) has virtually no way to fast charge at home and many have no way at all. He’s lucky if he can get an extension cord from his apartment or wherever he lives that doesn’t have access to 240V handy. I’d hazard to say that knocks out a significant percentage of folks. Most everyone in apartments, a lot of inner city homes with only street parking, townhomes where you can’t park right up next to your place.
I bet the better part of 50% of the population would find it a challenge at a minimum and majority of them will impossible to charge at home at all. And basically anyone who doesn’t own their home or have a good house rental agreement can’t level 2 charge at home.


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womps

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Posted: 01/16/23 04:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I have a Mustang Mach E. You can not precondition the batteries unless you are plugged into a 240 volt power source. In fact at 35 below you would be lucky to add a mile of distance for every 10 hours of charging on a 110 volt. Cold is a big enemy of BEV’s, both in range and charging speed.

map40

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Posted: 01/16/23 04:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

Does anyone know the wattage on the battery heaters used in EV's?

Resistive heating, which is what most EVs have, goes up to 10kw aprox. That includes battery and creature comfort (cabin and trunk space).
Very few have heat pumps which are more efficient. Keep in mind the EVs need to raise temp in the battery pack quickly, so the heater is oversized to get to temp fast.
The problem with the EVs and the cold is a time problem. If it is too cold and you just start it and go, all EVs will crank the heat to max to ensure no damage to the high voltage battery (EV batteries can provide power to 0F, but can't charge at less than 30F, so until the pack is warm the car can't use regenerative breaking). Again, that is the reason why they have such large heaters. If you have the heating preprogramed or plugged in, the heating is just maintenance and far less of a power drain.
I always compare it with my old Dodge with the 5.9L Cummins with the block heater when I lived in Michigan. Was it mandatory to plug it in at night? No, but it certainly made it a heck of a lot more comfortable in a cold morning.
That is also the reason why most EVs have seat heating, so you can reduce the need of cabin heating.


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map40

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Posted: 01/16/23 05:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

Reisender wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Does anyone know the wattage on the battery heaters used in EV's?


It depends on the car Don. But generally speaking EV’s do it different than ICE cars. Unlike an Ice car that uses an electric element to heat metal, most EV’s use the power from the battery to heat itself, or in many cases the coolant which is circulated. But that only happens down till about 20 percent battery and then that gets turned off so the battery isn’t depleted. It also doesn’t heat it unless the owner decides to either pre-condition the battery in preparation for charging or if the owner wants to warn the interiour and defrost the windows. Even if the car is plugged in the power will still come from the battery, but the battery will be charging because it’s plugged in. The power for everything always comes from the battery. The only thing that changes when it is plugged in is the battery is charging.

So in answer to your question, you can use anything from 8 amps at 120 volts to 48 amps at 240 volts. But the battery won’t be heated unless the user or the software decides it needs it. Below minus 30 the algorhythm changes a bit from what I understand. But only if it’s plugged in. The coldest we have used ours over the years is about minus 30 so I can’t speak to colder than that. We don’t plug ours in if it’s out in those temps as the cord gets to stiff to put away. The car doesn’t care either way. It takes an extra 5 minutes to warm up and defrost the windows at that temp.

We have a garage but unfortunately it is often occupied for projects so it is not always available.

Hope that helps.


I should have been clearer

I wanted to know if the battery was kept warm while plugged in at temperatures down to -37 c (-34 f)--and if so, how much power does it use to do so.

I'd have access to level 1 charging.

I seem to remember that the Leaf does use energy from the battery bank to keep the bank warm. But really not sure at all

All EVs will be able to keep the pack warm, but normally you program your departure time and the car will use power from the plug to heat up the battery. Level 1 charging (a 11 amp 110v load) is sufficient for that purpose unless you get a Porsche Tycaan or the Merc.
The advantage of the Level 1 is that while it is charging that maintains the temperature of the pack, so a slow charger is actually saving electricity because the car will be slow charging all night long, the batteries will maintain temperature due to the charging process and there is no need to use the heater.
In opposition to that, if you have like me, a Level 2 in parallel with my RV plug, the car charges before the time I leave, so if I was in cold weather, the car would have to "heat up" the pack.
Level 1 will give you 3-5Miles of range depending in the vehicle, so even if your battery is big and you don't charge it to full, you can get an idea on how much you can charge.
Also, not charging to 100% and charging in a Level 1 are the best things you can do to the battery. That is how I got my Leafs to last longer than average.
If you have any more questions in particular (Particular car, number of hours, etc) PM, maybe I can help you with info a little more precise for your case.

map40

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Posted: 01/16/23 05:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Reisender wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Does anyone know the wattage on the battery heaters used in EV's?


It depends on the car Don. But generally speaking EV’s do it different than ICE cars. Unlike an Ice car that uses an electric element to heat metal, most EV’s use the power from the battery to heat itself, or in many cases the coolant which is circulated. But that only happens down till about 20 percent battery and then that gets turned off so the battery isn’t depleted. It also doesn’t heat it unless the owner decides to either pre-condition the battery in preparation for charging or if the owner wants to warn the interiour and defrost the windows. Even if the car is plugged in the power will still come from the battery, but the battery will be charging because it’s plugged in. The power for everything always comes from the battery. The only thing that changes when it is plugged in is the battery is charging.

So in answer to your question, you can use anything from 8 amps at 120 volts to 48 amps at 240 volts. But the battery won’t be heated unless the user or the software decides it needs it. Below minus 30 the algorhythm changes a bit from what I understand. But only if it’s plugged in. The coldest we have used ours over the years is about minus 30 so I can’t speak to colder than that. We don’t plug ours in if it’s out in those temps as the cord gets to stiff to put away. The car doesn’t care either way. It takes an extra 5 minutes to warm up and defrost the windows at that temp.

We have a garage but unfortunately it is often occupied for projects so it is not always available.

Hope that helps.


I should have been clearer

I wanted to know if the battery was kept warm while plugged in at temperatures down to -37 c (-34 f)--and if so, how much power does it use to do so.

I'd have access to level 1 charging.

I seem to remember that the Leaf does use energy from the battery bank to keep the bank warm. But really not sure at all


Yah I get what you are asking now. Bottom line is a normal 120 volt 15 amp receptacle is fine for that. We did all our charging like that for a couple years. But even a 240 volt 12 amp connection is much better. We since added that and it’s a much better charging solution in cold weather. Hope that helps.

Agree with everything and would like to add a little more info. Tesla has one of the better charging management software so you can control exactly how much power (amps) you are charging. Most other EVs DON'T HAVE THIS FUNCTIONALITY. In my case, I ended buying a charger that allows me to control how much I charge because my car would always go fo 240v 40amps and I wanted it to charge slower. I have a 50 amp plug for my EVs that I share with my RV (40Ft Alfa See Ya with 3 AC units).
To make it worse the line is not 50 amps, the breakers are only 30 amps. So I restrict how much current the EV uses for charging so I can run everything.
If you are not buying a Tesla make plans to buy also a nice multi-plug multi-voltage programable charger (Like $300 in Amazon). With that you can charge in any outlet (Range, dryer, RV 50/30 amps, 20 amp, 15 amp) and any current you want.

map40

Florida

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Posted: 01/16/23 05:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Groover wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Too many things do not make any sense.
At a time when we are all being pushed into EVs, and electricity supply is constrained.... We have companies with warehouses full of computers running 24/7 To "mine" fake money. The electricity wasted doing this could have far better and more productive uses.. Then this fake money is sold to a greater fool for real money in the hopes that an even greater fool will come along and pay even more for it. So long as we as a society fall into this madness, I do not see how we can possibly affect the climate in a positive way.

I have a long list of things that do not make any sense, but this is enough for now


You are right about the madness. As a Tesla owner I believe that electric cars have a definite place on our roads and that that place will expand as everything related to electric cars improves. My concern is that most of the people pushing electric cars don't seem to have a clue on where to get the electricity. Sure, solar and wind will help but I don't believe that it is going to get us more than about half way there.

As an engineer the obvious answer to me is that we need more nuclear power at a more affordable price. In the near term that is probably small modular reactors of the sort that Bill Gates has been promoting. With enough carbon free electric power we might even be able to start pulling CO2 back out of the air or make synthetic fuels with carbon pulled from the air. The response that I generally get from environmentalists is that nuclear power is too dangerous. And yet the can't show any damage done by nuclear power that is nearly as catastrophic or impending as much as the damage that they predict from too much CO2 in the air. There is an old saying about not getting the carriage in front of the horse but as far as I can tell most environmentalists don't even know why the horse is needed.

Basically, many of the environmentalists are just as much or more in denial than most of the climate change deniers. If the "environmentalists" had not been in such determined opposition to nuclear power in the last 40 or 50 years we would have had a lot less fossil fuel consumption and the environment would be in a lot better shape than it currently is.

Agreed. EVs will hit a wall in regards of energy availability, and primarily in Distribution. I have seen small nuclear reactors so they are scalable, and maybe they are the solution, but the current technology in the current path will allow the EVs to grow only to a certain point.

pianotuna

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Posted: 01/16/23 08:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grover I'm all for nuclear power, if you can tell me how and where to safely store the waste. Until that happens I'm anti nuclear.


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

Bird Freak

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Posted: 01/16/23 09:33pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wnjj wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

map40,

Which electric car will go 1500 miles on a single charge?

I took that to mean he’s driven 1500 miles and not had to use a public charger (i.e. round trips from home).
He said WITHOUT RECHARGING.


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