dedmiston wrote:



I've never had a camp before, except for a literal camp. And honestly, I prefer the literal physical camp.

For anyone who's wondering why I dove into this topic so hard, I saw a thread a few days ago (maybe last week?) where way2roll posed some very measured and thoughtful questions about EVs to the leader of the other camp (if that's what we're calling it) and the questions were dodged outright (see my quote above). This was right around the time I heard about the interview on the Joe Rogan Experience and then I watched the video of the thousands of people working in the mines with no protective gear (literally in flip-flops). The guest on the podcast was an eye witness and attested that the people were forced to work for a dollar or two a day (including child labor). It's been grinding on me ever since.

(Note that this might be the first time way2roll has been called "measured and thoughtful", but that's one of the reasons the post jumped off the page at me.)

It just doesn't seem right to stand by and say nothing while the other side continues to cheerlead for EVs. I've had misgivings for a long time about the actual practicality and effectiveness from an environmental and economic standpoint, but the human rights aspect of it never really occurred to me.

When I was in college I had a part time job for the City of L.A. and every vendor was required to sign a statement that they weren't in any way connected to South Africa or anyone who furthered the practice of Apartheid. And now the state is mandating that we switch over to EVs that are actually accelerating the demand for slave labor. It's hard to reconcile the two behaviors except for the feel-good part of the EV cult.

I certainly don't have the answers, but in my opinion we're heading down the wrong path and people are literally being hurt by the EV movement. And posts that I've seen here on this forum prove my fear that the proponents of the EVs aren't being intellectually honest.

When I was in fifth grade our teacher was giving us a history lesson on the heroic acts of Kit Carson. (Hopefully I don't screw up the facts here. It's been a long time since fifth grade.) She was basically just reading from the text and telling us what a swell guy he was. But I had just been to Canyon de Chelly that summer and heard the Navajo's side of the story. I saw red when I heard my sweet teacher reading the story about him being a hero . So I raised my hand and told her the text was wrong. She was surprised, but she had me come to the front of the class and tell what I knew. So I gave the details of what I had heard about the massacres and the Trail of Tears, and then the teacher shut the text and talked to the class about sources of information and weighing various sides of the issue.

Sometimes you have to raise your hand. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but I don't for a minute believe that we've weighed both sides of the EV issues and arrived at balanced and informed position. Corporations are doing what corporations do. Governments are doing what governments do. And cheerleaders are doing what cheerleaders do. Hopefully the rest of us can ask some questions and push back enough to prevent anything that we'll all regret years down the road.

Grit dog wrote:

Reisender know I wasn’t targeting you in particular and I tried to make it clear the names were just hypothetical folks on both sides of the argument. No offense meant.
You’ve been nothing but straightforward but in my example there are many/most on the EV side that are blinded by the idealism and ignorant or at least not admitting of the whole story.
And I’ve said this 100 times. I’d drive an EV all day if it made sense.
But it doesn’t and it just gets annoying when people gush over things like this and have no clue as to what other considerations need to be made and frankly don’t care because it would make them look silly.

Grit dog wrote:

Ha, just read this!
Yes the logistics of OTR electric semis is mind boggling for many reasons, including regulatory limitations on drivers. But that is just one of many huge hurdles. And it’s still laughable at this point.
To comment on the Ill call it Reisender vs Dedmiston debate (only for simiplicity), Reisender as nice of a feller as he is, has repeatedly, like YS1 and others been very good at stopping their level of “understanding” at very convenient spots where delving further would not support their arguments or beliefs.
You can say that about anyone technically, however it is a prevalent if not the most prevalent general trait of (can I say {snip}?) a certain political and social affiliation.
Like take the cobalt example. I can get on the internet and it tells me 1lb of cobalt is used to refine 80,000 gallons of gasoline, or enough gas to fuel 10ea 30mpg cars for 350k miles each.
Then I can read that it takes between 6-15kg of cobalt per EV battery. Do the math and see that even with a little number fudging each way, there is orders of magnitude more cobalt being used in electronics and the mega batteries like for cars are obviously using waaaaay more than to make gasoline.
The Reisender YS1 camp will just say “well that’s over my head, but I’m saving the world!!” As they hop on their unicorn and fly away into the sunset convinced that they are morally superior, all while ignoring anything thst is inconvenient to think about or admit.

Now the Dedmiston’s (all of us, remember names were only used to differentiate the 2 camps here) sure, we kinda do the same. We buy china garbage and we have cell phones etc. We’re not “perfect”. BUT here’s the big difference…… wait for it……

MATH!!
Dedmiston’s can see that even if half of the EVs don’t use cobalt , whether that’s true or not, if the basic numbers are within a realm of reasonableness, EVs easily use over 100x the amount!

Carry on!

cptqueeg wrote:

. . . once roads are electrified there won't be near the need for big batteries as this process continues.

cptqueeg wrote:




No credit for using math until you show your work.

What you've written is based on assumptions and presumptions and has nothing to do w math. Compare the scale of EV's produced vs the amount of gasoline consumed and get back to us on total amount of cobalt used. And just one other thing to consider is the potential to recycle the EV batts and the cobalt they contain.


And while we're using batts to carry electrical energy at the moment once roads are electrified there won't be near the need for big batteries as this process continues.

TechWriter wrote:


Currently (no pun intended) that's about $2M per mile. When pigs fly.