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Walaby
Georgia
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Just curious. With all this discussion, has anyone discussed what happens when a major weather event, say a hurricane, takes power out across a major area. How will all the electric emergency vehicles operate and recharge?
I think there's a reasonable place for EV vehicles, but I can't visualize a total replacement.
Sure would like to hear a well thought out solution for that.
Mike
Im Mike Willoughby, and I approve this message.
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Reisender
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Walaby wrote:Just curious. With all this discussion, has anyone discussed what happens when a major weather event, say a hurricane, takes power out across a major area. How will all the electric emergency vehicles operate and recharge?
I think there's a reasonable place for EV vehicles, but I can't visualize a total replacement.
Sure would like to hear a well thought out solution for that.
Mike
I suspect local storage at the firehall, police station etc. Or keep it low tech and go with a big a$$ cat generator.
Many DC fast chargers already employ local storage. It all takes time.
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Danger Don
Bombastic Cafe
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California's grid faces collapse as lead........ say, but then there is the source FWIW.
California's electric grid faces years of potential blackouts and failure as state leaders continue pushing aggressive measures to transition to renewable energy sources, policy experts tell Fox News Digital.
The state's grid, which is still mainly powered by fossil fuels, is undergoing a major shift from natural gas and coal power to renewable power like wind and solar. Simultaneously, state officials are pushing an electrification of the economy, particularly in the transportation sector through electric vehicle mandates, which is expected to increase pressure on the grid.
"California is drastically cutting our dependence on fossil fuels and cleaning our air," Democratic California Gov. Gavin Newsom said in a November announcement unveiling the "world’s first detailed pathway to carbon neutrality."
The state's plan involves goals to slash greenhouse gas emissions by 85%, cut oil usage by 94% and deploy more solar and wind capacity over the next two decades. The aggressive plan to overhaul the state's energy system came three months after a top California environmental agency moved forward with a rule requiring all new vehicle sales to be electric by 2035.
In 2021, the most recent year with data, wind and solar accounted for about 25% of total electricity generated in California while natural gas accounted for more than 50% of in-state electricity generation. And 19% of new car sales in California were zero-emission vehicles, state data showed.
Experts told Fox News Digital environmental mandates implemented by Newsom and his administration have already created instability in the grid, an issue they argued would only get worse as existing fossil fuel power generation capacity was taken offline and replaced by intermittent sources.
"They're going to have to build an outrageous amount of wind and solar in a very short time if they want to accomplish their objectives of electrifying — our whole transportation sector and our whole home heating and cooling and residential sector," Edward Ring, a senior fellow with and co-founder of the California Policy Center, told Fox News Digital in an interview.
"There's a burden to the consumer that's going to get very heavy," he continued. "Even if they can pull it off without blackouts, the burden to the consumer is going to be ridiculous."
Over summer, the California Independent System Operator (CAISO), the state's electric grid operator, repeatedly warned that high demand would significantly strain utility providers' ability to supply consumers electricity amid a heat wave.
CAISO issued an "energy emergency alert 3," its highest alert level, at one point in early September, saying residents should maximize conservation and expect rotating outages, and a flex alert for more than seven consecutive days. The operator also recommended residents refrain from charging electric vehicles to reduce stress on the grid.
"They already are suffering," said Myron Ebell, the director of the Competitive Enterprise Institute's Center for Energy and Environment.
"They're, in fact, telling people that they're going to start shutting off natural gas to houses and that they have to convert to electricity," he told Fox News Digital. "Then, they're forcing people to buy electric vehicles and they're going to stop selling internal combustion engine vehicles. That will add to the grid's demand."
In its annual report released in December, the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC), a nonpartisan grid watchdog, stated that California faced a "high risk of energy or capacity shortfall" in coming years, particularly during summer months, as a result of traditional power plant retirements and increased demand.
Ebell added that the intermittent nature of solar and wind, meaning they produce less power relative to their total generation capacity, could create instability. Green energy developers and government officials often highlight total capacity of new renewable power projects, but fail to mention how much actual power the project is expected to produce.
Solar panels, for example, produce just 25% and wind turbines produce 34% of their listed capacity, according to the Energy Information Administration (EIA). Coal, natural gas and nuclear power plants, meanwhile produce 49%, 54% and 93% of their listed capacity, respectively.
"The only way the electrification of the transportation sector and of home heating and cooling can work is if the utility sector continues to build natural gas fired plants and looks to building nuclear plants and perhaps building new coal plants because the grid in these states that are pushing these policies is already overloaded," Ebell continued.
"As everybody moves to EVs, if it happens, the only way to do it is to find more baseload power and dispatchable power."
The total capacity of the state's natural gas power plants has fallen 15% between 2013 and 2021, according to the California Energy Commission. In April, Newsom was forced to reverse course on plans to allow California's only remaining nuclear plant, which alone produces 9% of the state's electricity generation, to close.
California also imports more electricity than any other state in the U.S., receiving between 20%-30% of its supplies from mainly fossil fuels out-of-state, EIA data shows.
Another potential hurdle to the future of California's grid stability is the need for new transmission line infrastructure to handle additional demand and connect new renewable energy projects, often located in rural regions, to the grid, Steven Malanga, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, told Fox News Digital. He also argued leaders should put greater emphasis on battery storage which remains far behind where it needs to be.
"These are tremendous costs which haven't been fairly calculated by the renewable energy people," Malanga said in an interview. "Essentially what happens is we have this power grid that has been built up over the decades and to go renewable doesn't just involve building renewable like wind farms and solar farms, but you also have to build new transmission lines."
"And more significantly, you have to build storage capacity," he continued. "In a lot of places like California, they're not even backing up renewables with natural gas, which is really what most sensible people, utility people, say you have to do because renewables are intermittent."
The Department of Energy estimated last year that the U.S. would need to expand its transmission infrastructure 60% by 2030 and triple its size by 2050 to meet climate goals.
According to an independent analysis by energy researcher Robert Bryce, at its current pace, it would take an estimated 282 years to triple the nation's transmission capacity. Like other energy projects and infrastructure development, transmission lines often face delays from environmental regulation and local opposition.
"You have to get that power to cities which are the big users of electricity," Malanga told Fox News Digital. "So, you have to build all new transmission lines. Transmission lines are not only expensive to build, but they face tremendous environmental regulations. Permitting them takes years."
"It takes ten years just to get approvals to build some of these transmission lines and that's just one generation," he added. "Some of these places have renewable targets that are 2035, 2040 and 2045. That's not that's far in the future if you're talking about building a whole new energy infrastructure, which is essentially what we're talking about in California."
"The truth of the matter is that in many places we've seen how the energy grid is already dangerously close to failing because we're not paying enough attention to sustaining the grid. This is going to result in blackouts. And we've already seen them. The stories are tragic."
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wa8yxm
Davison Michigan (East of Flint)
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Though if everyone switched out their ICE rides for EV's TODAY.. we would have a problem... But part of the Biden Build Back Better plan is to improve the power grid so as to meet the needs.
Since total conversion is not happening tomorrow. but perhaps 10-20 years down the road as car wear out... IF EVER (Some folks will keep their ICE vehicles) I do not think there will be a major problem.
Home was where I park it. but alas the.
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Bobbo
Wherever I park
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Reisender wrote:ronharmless wrote:The electrical infrastructure serving my house was installed in our backyard in 1953. The main backbone infrastructure has not been upgraded since being installed. Without a very expansive outside financial input, there won’t be a infrastructure update. My backyard is only 1 of a 150 million backyards. Power plants, substations, and transformers are one gargantuan cost, the 150 million last mile(s) are even bigger. No money no bueno.
Meh. BC hydro talks about this on their website. Any upgrades get done in the normal course of regular maintenance. They see no issues going forward as it is a 40 year transition that already started 10 years ago. I’m sure most modern nations won’t have a problem with the transition.
I love it! when someone points out the weakness in his area, the response is "Meh." Claims the "upgrades get done in the normal course of regular maintenance." So, just dismissing the problem is now the solution.
Bobbo and Lin
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Learjet
Louisiana
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Walaby wrote:Just curious. With all this discussion, has anyone discussed what happens when a major weather event, say a hurricane, takes power out across a major area. How will all the electric emergency vehicles operate and recharge?
I think there's a reasonable place for EV vehicles, but I can't visualize a total replacement.
Sure would like to hear a well thought out solution for that.
Mike
Not an emergency vehicle, but my EV can charge on my Generac 22 kW whole home generator off of natural gas if needed.
FYI...I have a Nissan Leaf and it's perfect for what I use it for after almost 3 years of ownership and almost 30,000 miles.
I don't think EVs are a good solution for emergency vehicles at this time and I think overall they are being overhyped right now with everyone trying to catch Tesla. There is a place for them, but the market place will settle down and they will find there place.
Everyone that hates EVs just need to settle down a little ![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
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Reisender
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Bobbo wrote:Reisender wrote:ronharmless wrote:The electrical infrastructure serving my house was installed in our backyard in 1953. The main backbone infrastructure has not been upgraded since being installed. Without a very expansive outside financial input, there won’t be a infrastructure update. My backyard is only 1 of a 150 million backyards. Power plants, substations, and transformers are one gargantuan cost, the 150 million last mile(s) are even bigger. No money no bueno.
Meh. BC hydro talks about this on their website. Any upgrades get done in the normal course of regular maintenance. They see no issues going forward as it is a 40 year transition that already started 10 years ago. I’m sure most modern nations won’t have a problem with the transition.
I love it! when someone points out the weakness in his area, the response is "Meh." Claims the "upgrades get done in the normal course of regular maintenance." So, just dismissing the problem is now the solution.
Dismissing the problem? No, as stated, it is being addressed in the normal course of maintenance and upgrades. That is the solution. There is lots of info on their website. Go check it out. Not an issue.
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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Joined: 05/06/2013
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Reisender wrote:Walaby wrote:Just curious. With all this discussion, has anyone discussed what happens when a major weather event, say a hurricane, takes power out across a major area. How will all the electric emergency vehicles operate and recharge?
I think there's a reasonable place for EV vehicles, but I can't visualize a total replacement.
Sure would like to hear a well thought out solution for that.
Mike
I suspect local storage at the firehall, police station etc. Or keep it low tech and go with a big a$$ cat generator.
Many DC fast chargers already employ local storage. It all takes time.
Lol, whatever. Your sense of numbers or magnitude or feasibility is stuck hard on the wish/hope/dream side of things and not the reality side. Meh, BC hydro will take care of it! Lol
350k vehicles damaged in the last hurricane and it didn’t even hit a major city or neAr one.
Power outages for weeks, but the water is gone in a day and you need to drive somewhere.
Your socialist yuppie view on this is clouding your perception of reality.
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ferndaleflyer
everywhere
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Lantly over on Oella my daughters neighbor charges 2 EVs with cords ran from his residence. Those places are maybe 200 years old and no telling what kind of wiring etc is in there. That Reisender fellow has all the answers, we just need to listen.
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BB_TX
McKinney, Texas
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Joined: 04/04/2005
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The local power company raised the voltage on the feeder lines to our neighborhood several years ago. They replaced all the individual transformers, but did not need to replace the transmission lines since the higher voltage could push more power thru the same lines with less current. In some other nearby areas they replaced the power pole cross bars with longer bars to increase the distance between wires for the higher voltage.
That is one part of routine maintenance and upgrading to handle increased demand.
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