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GaryS1953
Michigan
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Joined: 05/26/2009
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Durb wrote:GaryS1953 wrote:Durb wrote:Your truck's keester is still squatting 1.5" with your weight distribution hitch set up. I would apply more tension to the bars by tilting the hitch head down and transferring more weight to your front tires. Try to get your rear measurement to 37.25". Wouldn't hurt.
The problem with air bags is that it hardens the rear suspension creating a fulcrum. Adding weight (tongue weight) far behind the rear axle creates a lever and will cause your front axle to unload. The reason your 5th wheel of almost equivalent weight didn't have the same effect is because the weight was directly over the rear axle.
I assume you weighed the truck with the trailer attached and also weighed the trailer's axles. It would be nice to know what the truck weighs without the trailer attached to help determine your tongue weight. If your axles come in at 5,980 and you have 12% tongue weight, then your trailer weighs 6,795 pounds with 815 pounds of tongue weight. Starting to get kind of heavy for a half ton truck.
I'm not sure I understand about putting tension on the bars by "tilting the hitch head down". I have a Curt 17601 weight distribution hitch with integrated sway control. I don't know how I would tilt the hitch head, but I could raise the height of the equalizing/sway bars, which obviously would put more tension on them. Is that what you meant?
Thanks, Gary
Search Curt 17601 on Google and an installation video will come up, or copy and paste this URL. (https://youtu.be/ki7Z_FtfFEY). They show how to adjust the two adjustment screws on the hitch head to tilt the bars down thus increasing spring tension.
So I adjusted the hitch tilt as far as I could and still get the ball to lock. It made putting bars on very difficult with the jack as high as it would go, and it made virtually no difference in the measurements, nor in the way the truck felt driving down the road. I adjusted it back to straight up. Have not had time to get back to the Cat scale.
Gary in Michigan
2014 Chevy Silverado 1500 Double Cab 5.3 Liter V8
1996 Coachmen Catalina RB210 21' Fifth Wheel
495 Watts Solar, 40 AMP Renogy Tracer MPPT Controller,2 GC2 6V Batts.
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GaryS1953
Michigan
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JRscooby wrote:GaryS1953 wrote:
The guy gave me two slips, and they ARE confusing. The first one says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 6540
Trailer Axle 5980
Gross Weight 12520
The 2nd sheet says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 840
Trailer Axle 5860
Gross Weight 6700
This WAS confusing to me. I asked the guy to explain, and he said the Drive axle was the truck, and the trailer axle was the trailer weight. I didin't realize the numbers on the 2nd sheet were different until I got home. The more I think about it I think the truck and trailer numbers might be reversed, and that would make more sense. The curb weight of the truck is supposed to be 5209, and the dry weight of the trailer should be 5777. I do have stuff in both the truck, and the camper, but all the tanks were empty, and we had removed a lot of our stuff right after we got back from camping. I'm guessing there's about 300 to 400 lbs of odds and ends in the basement and the pantry and bedroom.
This is the fault of internet. We tell you to weigh with and without the trailer, but just assume you will know how to use scale. I'm sorry.
The Cat platform is divided into 3 sections, normally with blue lines around each. When you pull on you should park with one line under the TV, so front axle is on 1 segment, rear on 2nd, and trailer on 3rd. Parked like that each time you weigh the ticket will have 4 numbers; STEERING,(=front axle) DRIVE,(=back axle of TV) TRAILER, (=the trailer axles) and GROSS (=total weight of unit) The pass w/o trailer the 3rd segment will read 0
With all those numbers we can figure out what adjustments need to be made. Subtract Gross w/o trailer from gross with it, you have weight of trailer. Subtract what scale reads as Trailer from that number, you have tongue weight. Is that percentage in the 10-15% range?
Comparing DRIVE weight to ratings on rear tires, are tires overloaded at 35PSI? (BTW, I have never seen factory recommend tires on 1/2 ton be maxed out on sidewall labeled pressure)
Weight on front w/wo tells how much the TW is subtracting from front. Is that enough to cause issue?
I should have researched this before I went to the Cat scale. I'll try to get back in the next couple of days, but I'm really starting to feel like this truck is just not adequate for the job. Unfortunately, a new truck is not in the cards, so I may be putting this trailer up for sale and going back to our old tried and true fifth wheel. Thanks for your patient explanations and advice.
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GaryS1953
Michigan
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Grit dog wrote:PS
You didn’t use the scale correctly and had your whole truck on the drive axle pad for #1 and whatever #2 is, is useless. I will try to get back to the Cat scale in the next few days. Thanks for your advice and recommendations.
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GaryS1953
Michigan
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mkirsch wrote:The scale operator should have instructed you on what to do to get proper weights. He just took your money.
Fender measurements are almost as good as weights. 1-1/2" of squat in the rear is FINE. You don't need to be at unloaded ride height. The truck is designed with 2" of rake to ride level while having a load in the back.
The most important measurement is the front fender. You need three measurements. One unhitched. Two hitched withOUT the bars attached. Three hitched WITH the bars attached. You are missing measurement #2 here.
The ideal range for measurement #3 is halfway between measurement #1 and #2. Closer to #1 is better.
Are the bars easy to install? If so they are NOT doing their job.
Quote:
Truck Measures without hooked up
Front 35.75"
Rear 37.75"
Truck Measure after hooked up
Front 36.00"
Rear 36.25
You are only .25" off in the front so you should be transferring PLENTY of weight, assuming you measured in the exact same location both times. Thank you for for the explanations and advice. I'll be getting back to the Cat scale in the next few days. The bars are difficult to install, and necessitate me jacking the camper and truck up close to the max in order to accomplish it, but then I'm getting weaker in my old (70) age ![[emoticon]](http://www.rv.net/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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Gary, not sure why you’re still on the “throw the baby out with the bath water kick”.
Look at the title of your thread.
And your assessment before and after the new hitch.
You seem to have cured the “sway”? Which sounds like just the typical little “wiggles” of hauling a long bp trailer that likely has enough weight in the tail to wag the dog just a little.
If you had sway problems, you’d have had to stop and clean your shorts and then you’d have been drivin miss daisy at about 45-50mph the rest of the way.
The bouncing/bucking CAN be helped greatly with a stiffer rear suspension and as I recommended like 5 pages ago, riding on cushy tires makes it even more pronounced.
If you’re still with me here, you can simulate both better tires AND a stiffer suspension for FREE.
Do this. First, pump up your rear tires to idk, 55-60 psi (don’t freak out, they won’t pop) and take a test drive with simulated higher capacity tires.
Now if your truck has a separate lower overload spring, go back and pick up the back of the truck a bit above unloaded stance with the trailer jack, like you’re hooking up the bars. Or you can do it by jacking up the truck with a jack under the stinger. Wedge the overload tight to the leaf pack so it takes load instantly. This is the equivalent of adding some spring capacity.
If your leaf pack is all clipped together you can’t do the last thing, so spend the $100-150 on a pair of overload helper leafs off Amazon and slap them on the springs and crank em up.
You may keep them or you can refund them easy peasy.
This is a difficult conversation since you continually jump back to needing a heavier truck rather than even attempting to improve the one you have. Makes my brain hurt and it should make yours hurt too if you don’t think you’re “able” to get a 3/4 ton.
I can promise you I’ve towed 1000s or 10000s of miles with half tons pulling trailers that make yours look like little tinkerbell from a weight standpoint. Now some/many TTs don’t tow ideally due to a greater % of weight aft of the axles. But so be it. Although I just can’t see not doing anything and throwing the white flag.
* This post was
edited 05/23/23 10:17am by Grit dog *
2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29 - Sold.
Couple of Arctic Fox TCs - Sold
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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So I looked at your camper model and specs and a few things jump out at me as well.
Some positive, some contributing to your poor towing experience maybe.
1. It shouldn’t be “too” tail heavy with empty tanks although the fridge is a little aft of the axles and with the rear bath I bet the gray and black tanks are under the rear of the camper. It may be quite tail heavy with full gray and black tanks.
2. The gvw vs wheel/axle combo is not right. Now based on your trailer scale weight you’re under the axle ratings by enough but 2-3500 lb axles and 14” tires DONT belong under a trailer that weighs anywhere near the 9000+ gvw. While you’re “ok”, the springs and tires are probably marginal even for your lightly loaded trailer.
The springs may be a bit soft and exaggerating the behavior. I’d almost guarantee they’re not even close to holding the full gvw - tongue weight. Unless it’s some unconventional combo of wimpy axles and wheels with heavy springs.
More importantly, trailer tires and air pressure. You didn’t even say, but if you gots 195s or 205s C load or don’t even have the max pressure in those tires that will make the trailer handle worse. Idk how old the tires are but there’s room for D load 65 psi 215 size tires and that will also help.
You can do the same simulation with the trailer. Air the trailer tires up to 65psi (even if they’re 50psi tires) and take a test drive. (Presuming you already addressed the tire pressure properly and aren’t just running on under inflated tires.)
Better tires and/or springs if they’re maxxed or pooched will help how the trailer handles. It so much with the bucking but with the wiggles/sway.
Bottom line you bought a decidedly used trailer that like many TTs (new or used) may have inadequate suspension and tires for the best handling and durability, combined with the additional aspect of wear n tear on the springs likely?
If you don’t have money to “throw” at stuff, you gotta have a little will, skill and ingenuity.
So you can scrap the plan for the sake of lack of effort or will or you can do a lot for free or cheap to solve the perceived problem or at least make it better.
Again, these recommendations are meant to be helpful and cost conscious. But you still have to participate to win….
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mkirsch
Rochester, NY
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Joined: 04/09/2004
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If you can't get the front end any lower, it's already down on the front jounce bumpers and trying to compress it farther will only damage the truck. Lifting the rear will only give you less traction in back and make handling worse.
Putting 10-ply tires on half ton trucks since aught-four.
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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mkirsch wrote:If you can't get the front end any lower, it's already down on the front jounce bumpers and trying to compress it farther will only damage the truck. Lifting the rear will only give you less traction in back and make handling worse.
Are you replying to the wrong conversation or???
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GaryS1953
Michigan
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Grit dog wrote:Gary, not sure why you’re still on the “throw the baby out with the bath water kick”.
Look at the title of your thread.
And your assessment before and after the new hitch.
You seem to have cured the “sway”? Which sounds like just the typical little “wiggles” of hauling a long bp trailer that likely has enough weight in the tail to wag the dog just a little.
If you had sway problems, you’d have had to stop and clean your shorts and then you’d have been drivin miss daisy at about 45-50mph the rest of the way.
The bouncing/bucking CAN be helped greatly with a stiffer rear suspension and as I recommended like 5 pages ago, riding on cushy tires makes it even more pronounced.
If you’re still with me here, you can simulate both better tires AND a stiffer suspension for FREE.
Do this. First, pump up your rear tires to idk, 55-60 psi (don’t freak out, they won’t pop) and take a test drive with simulated higher capacity tires.
Now if your truck has a separate lower overload spring, go back and pick up the back of the truck a bit above unloaded stance with the trailer jack, like you’re hooking up the bars. Or you can do it by jacking up the truck with a jack under the stinger. Wedge the overload tight to the leaf pack so it takes load instantly. This is the equivalent of adding some spring capacity.
If your leaf pack is all clipped together you can’t do the last thing, so spend the $100-150 on a pair of overload helper leafs off Amazon and slap them on the springs and crank em up.
You may keep them or you can refund them easy peasy.
This is a difficult conversation since you continually jump back to needing a heavier truck rather than even attempting to improve the one you have. Makes my brain hurt and it should make yours hurt too if you don’t think you’re “able” to get a 3/4 ton.
I can promise you I’ve towed 1000s or 10000s of miles with half tons pulling trailers that make yours look like little tinkerbell from a weight standpoint. Now some/many TTs don’t tow ideally due to a greater % of weight aft of the axles. But so be it. Although I just can’t see not doing anything and throwing the white flag. Grit Dog - Wow, thank YOU for hanging in there for me. I've been busy with company the last couple days and haven't been on the computer, but I really appreciate your detailed effort to help.
My use of the term "sway" may have been simply misunderstanding of what I was experiencing, and lack of proper terminology. Now that I've wasted money on the hitch, I think the "sway" problem was mostly caused by having too much weight in the back of my truck, and slightly under inflated truck tires. Having removed close to 600 lbs of weight seems to have helped with the sway feeling, but NOT with the bucking. We had some of that with the 5th wheel, but nothing like we experienced with the TT. My truck tires are Michelin XLTs, 265/75 R18, and the max PSI is 35. You're suggesting I inflate them to 55? That's a little scary... My truck does not have overload springs as near as I can tell, with just 3 leafs. Is there anything else I could try, cheaply or free? My cousin suggested adding another leaf spring, but I haven't looked into that yet, and would be reluctant to throw money at it not knowing it would work. The wife has said she WILL NOT ride in the truck with the camper bucking like it was, so it really has to be a major improvement. The one thought that I had was to try towing it with a 3/4 truck to see if the ride would be acceptable, and then I would at least know that suspension improvements on our current truck could make the difference. I'm going to try to do that tomorrow.
By the way, the trailer tires are ST 225/75 R15s, and the max PSI stamped on the tire is 80. Supposedly they were new last year. The freshwater tank is squarely between the axles, and the black and gray tanks are behind it. I rarely travel with much in the black and gray, but often carry a full tank of fresh water as we do some boondocking and or stopping at Cracker barrels along our route. I don't know if you saw it in the specs, but this trailer has a factory platform rack on the back that pulls out, basically an extension of the frame with the bumper attached to the end. The spare tire is mounted to this, but it makes a GREAT bike rack, incredibly sturdy. We did travel with two bikes on that rack platform.
Again, I really appreciate your tolerance of my ignorance on this subject, and willingness to help.
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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^No worries.
Couple thoughts.
I’m not publicly advocating overfilling tires even though I’ve done it when needed for the same reason. But doing it as a test to prove to you that 35psi in a little factory half ton tire is not enough and how much improvement you’ll see.
Maybe you’re not willing to do that, so go buy good truck tires then.
I also suggested since you confirmed you don’t have an overload spring to shim, the cheapest option is an easily installed and removed add on helper leaf.
I don’t know how else to explain that having a stiff rear suspension and stiff sidewalls will help a bunch.
Now people’s opinions differ and I can’t tell if you or your wife expect a Cadillac ride or ???
We just drove 1000mi in an empty lifted 3/4 ton on cheap stuff springs today. Don’t bother me but some may have too soft of keisters or a sensitive tummy…
Trying a HD truck is a good idea if you want to simulate how your truck would handle with better tires and stiffer springs. Except then you don’t have to have a new truck. You just have to do more than nothing to yours to make it handle better.
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